10.8.09

remember our history

he [satan] had a deceitful conversation with the woman - no doubt starting with the inferior of the human pair so as to arrive at the whole by stages, supposing that the man would not be so easily gullible, and could not be trapped by a false move on his part, but only if he yielded to another's mistake.
augustine

and do you not know that you are each an eve? the sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. you are the devil's gateway; you are the unsealer of that forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law; you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. you destroyed so easily God's image, man. on account of your desert - that is, death - even the son of God had to die.
tertullian

therefore satan, seeing that adam was the more excellent creature, did not dare attack him; for he was afraid that this attempt would fail. and i believe that if he had attacked adam first, adam would have gained the victory. he would have crushed the serpent with his foot and said: hold your tongue! the lord has commanded otherwise.
luther

woman is more guilty than man, because she was seduced by satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading all to perdition. it is necessary that women recognise this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. this is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame.
calvin

9 comments:

Curate Karen said...

This is shocking to read, Jodi, when they are stacked up that way. Centuries and centuries of demeaning theology against women. Amazing.

jody said...

absolutely karen

i recently had a conversation with a guy at new wine, he was 25, and he didn't think that the images that we use or the words that we use, really matter - ie it doesn't matter that we use 'man' instead of 'human' or whether there is a female image in advertising literature, say on leadership.

it made me recognise once again that there is so little recognition of our history... which means that so many are simply repeating the history, or thinking that it doesn't matter because it's not to do with them, or that they are 'past that' now.

remembering what and whose shoulders we stand on, particularly as God's people, is so integral to where we are going. how we deal with that history, accept it, acknowledge it, name it, and realise that it is part of our DNA whether we like it or not, will affect how much we can be 'past that'.

unfortunately i don't think that this particular man could 'hear' me, for whatever reason.

but i hope that others will.....

Jenny Baker said...

And how these attitudes linger... Thanks for the reminder Jody of just how wrong and damaging some people's theology can be!

jody said...

yes they do linger - at them moment, i find myself interested in the 'subtle' undermining that happens, as i see this as something that will be the main issue for women in ministry at the present time.

just as this young man at new wine who simply couldn't see that what is presented in image and word has a fundamental affect on people's attitudes towards women, but it's effects are under the surface.

Rachel Marszalek said...

Off topic - just to say Rachel has given you an Honest Scrap award. See http://hrht-revisingreform.blogspot.com/2009/08/unknowingly-memed-and-awarded.html

Peter Carrell said...

Thanks for these quotes, Jody.
I was not previously aware of them!
I have cited your post in this post today: http://hermdownunder.blogspot.com/2009/09/admiration-and-distance-from-great-men.html

Rosemary said...

And I have answered on Peter's blog as follows ..

I should not write this reply at this moment, because I’m so cross .. but perhaps you should all KNOW that. The blog Peter is referring to is written by a woman who is one of the leaders of an English blog of so called ‘open’ evangelicals called Fulcrum. Not a nobody in the world of our church, so someone who should be extra careful about what appears on her own personal blog.

We have been talking on another part of this blog, about the reasons we should avoid personal attacks .. well what are these? Does putting these quotes out like that help women to be more Godly? Does it help women to feel they should help men? Or fight against them? Does it help men to be more Godly? Or is it put there to increase their level of guilt .. such a productive emotion.

This is the sort of open declaration of ‘war’ between the genders that I abhor most deeply. Pointing out a person’s failures without realising that you too suffer from the same sin .. is abhorrent.

jody said...

Dear Rosemary

i did try to find your post on peter's blog, but couldn't?

thank you for commenting.

in my post, i laid out the history that we stand on, i made no comment - it was up to readers to take that and to make of it what they will.

peter did that.

my own point which i elaborate on in the comments, is that it is simply naiive to pretend that this is not our history or to dismiss the idea that this history still shapes us - which it clearly does.

it is up to us *all* to recognise that and to navigate how we understand the influence today.

blessings, Jody

Rachel Marszalek said...

Rosemary
Hi just Rachel here. Your tone could be more loving at times, you know. We need to discuss these things and not bury them in indifference but we need to approach them with lots of light and very little heat.

Blessings
Rachel